Text Positions (and more)

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Lysander
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Text Positions (and more)

Postby Lysander » Tue 11 Sep 2007 5:06 pm


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Visplane Overflow
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Postby Visplane Overflow » Tue 11 Sep 2007 5:45 pm

I'll start with the start, and work my way out.

Text position? You can modify 'tips' as it is. Using RTS tips allows one to create messages that can appear at any point on the screen, in any colour, and in any translucency. On second thought though, you probably mean that you want to change the position for the language reference when you acquire an item.

"Editing menus" I honestly can't fathom why you'd want something like this. You seem to want to limit the player's ability to customize his game. I assume you're making a mod that requires the options - 3D gameplay, extras, dynamic lights or others to be switched on. You can always just package a text file with your mod that says "These options need to be turned on for proper game play" much like Cory Whittle did with the recent Don's Challenge demo. Locking the ability to change the screen size is another idea of yours in the same vein - Your players wouldn't appreciate your attitude, I'm sure. Games need to be played in a certain way for what you believe to be maximum enjoyment, but there always has to be some element of player customization :P

"Inventory system". This one I legitamately like the sound of, although I always found Hexen's inventory system nearly impossible to use. By the way, this is the Enhanced Doom Gaming Engine, and as such has little or nothing in common with Strife, which is different programming altogether, as I understand.

"Cutscene Support" I can almost guarantee that this will never happen. Not that anyone except you wants it to happen =p I don't understand why you would feel the neccessity to force people through a little cinematic intro before they can play their game :P When they do that in commercial games, people skip them. People would least of all want to see your company's propaganda being played every time before they start =p Anyhow, cutscenes are available anyway, ZDoom jokewad-style, if that's a cogent paradigm. What I mean of course, is that I believe you can set up cameras in your map through RTS, and then use tip messages, or even sound files for voices to act out a script.

"Particle blood" "Sprites just aren't doing it for me." That's a shame. EDGE doesn't need a particle system at the moment, as one can use sprites to create truly masterful blood effects, if I do say so =p Try looking at (I sound like a broken record) Don's Challenge's realistic blood system, all done with DDF and sprites. Besides, ZDooms particle system looks like ass anyway :P

Lastly, I cannot condone trying to inspire competition, or bad feelings, between the EDGE source port and ZDoom. EDGE is an entirely different engine, and by that logic, ZDoom can never 'completely outdo' us, since they're not working on the same program. You can't really demand relatively unimportant features that would probably only help with one mod, operating on the idea that if EDGE doesn't get them, then ZDoom will 'completely outdo' EDGE.

Anyway, that's what I have to say about that. Hope I didn't rant you out too bad :P

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Postby Lobo » Tue 11 Sep 2007 10:23 pm

Have to agree with most of what Visplane Overflow said.

On the subject of Strife: there is no source code available so there is no possibility of looking at the code to see how it was done. Zdoom uses code based on some reverse engineering done by Janis Legzdinsh of Vavoom fame.

Cutscene support: some of what you want can be done, at least to the point of adding your own images/animation before the main menu/title screen.

Don't want to get into a flamewar about EDGE vs ZDoom (though the ZDoomers have no problem with starting them whenever the opportunity arises :wink:) but, as Visplane said, each source port concentrates on certain features which the author feels are important at the time, while ignoring others. Just look how long it took ZDoom to allow creating completely new things (monsters etc) from scratch without having to do some fancy dehacked work scrounching free frames, whereas EDGE has had this ability for years. Same goes for custom weapons.

For all the other stuff you mention, my answers are the same as Visplanes :D
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andrewj
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Postby andrewj » Wed 12 Sep 2007 1:02 am

Cutscenes: I have considered adding support for the Ogg/Theora video format. However I really doubt that anybody would use it, creating good-looking video is not something your average hobbiest can do.

Particles: they are just colored circles, never looked good to me. Sprites may be a bit expensive when used as particles, however I'd rather just fix that (e.g. a PARTICLE special which skips a lot of the physics checks to speed them up).

For gameplay features, I plan to add some standard linetypes, for example [500] might mean "enable jumping on this level". Actually you can already do this with EDGE using LEVELS.DDF, however nobody likes to make their own level definitions, hence my plan for an easier method.

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Postby Dartmerc » Wed 12 Sep 2007 5:16 am

I agree with Visplane Overflow and Lobo, most everything mentioned works great as it is. If you want opening cinematics, use a list of PNG images.
One thing I'd like to have 'fixed' (well not really, it isnt exactly broken), but when thin sliding doors slide, they realign to 0. Is it possible to keep the line's allignment when the doors are activated?

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Postby andrewj » Wed 12 Sep 2007 7:20 am


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Corbin
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Postby Corbin » Wed 12 Sep 2007 7:57 am


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Visplane Overflow
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Postby Visplane Overflow » Wed 12 Sep 2007 9:13 am


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Liberation
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Postby Liberation » Wed 12 Sep 2007 3:11 pm

i still think a freeze player rts comand and a notarget rts cmd would be very useful for cutscenes

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hungerfish
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Postby hungerfish » Wed 12 Sep 2007 5:42 pm

Looking at qdoom I must say that it is very possilbe to do good blood effects with edge.
But decals are a must to complete the 'experience', I think.

On to yet another idea (I dreamt up), would it be possible to do 'heat'??
Like have a heat-distortion effect behind missiles and plasma and during explosions. Or on top of flares and lava???

I think something like that would really beef up the 'enhanced' part of edge :-D
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Visplane Overflow
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Postby Visplane Overflow » Wed 12 Sep 2007 7:17 pm

Visual distortion effects? If that were possible, that's probably not to be a primary goal for the EDGE engine. Maybe some of you ambitious young-folk should take a peek into the source, yourselves =p

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Postby Lobo » Wed 12 Sep 2007 8:21 pm

, Lonely Meadows TC,

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Liberation
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Postby Liberation » Wed 12 Sep 2007 8:43 pm


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Lysander
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Postby Lysander » Thu 13 Sep 2007 6:04 pm


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Visplane Overflow
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Postby Visplane Overflow » Thu 13 Sep 2007 8:24 pm

Perhaps you need an emoticon to showcase the absence of sarcasm :P I think something like that would make the internet a much nicer place. Incidentally, my friend's first name is Cory, but that's neither here nor there :P

Perhaps you need to give us more background on the nature of your project, although I think I made it clear, as Ajapted has, that what is on the 'roadmap' are the things that will be actively worked for at the moment.

Edit: Also, I should note that if you intend to tell us about your project, then this is not the place for it.

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Joppu
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Postby Joppu » Fri 14 Sep 2007 6:26 am

I think that for the cut scene support only need option to replace player's view with camera object's view and make player notargeted and freeze player. When combined with camera RTS movements and tips and sounds it would be great for ingame cut scenes like in ZDoom wads. :D

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Corbin
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Postby Corbin » Fri 14 Sep 2007 9:13 am


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Liberation
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Postby Liberation » Fri 14 Sep 2007 4:57 pm

Video play back anit any use for the average bod, so i agree with joppu, i really should make a seperate thread for this

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Postby Dartmerc » Sat 15 Sep 2007 12:37 am

When we get the become() command, all our problems will be solved :D
That will allow easier 'player switching', allow better powerups to be made, and allow viewing from camera's.
Movie playback isnt required, as Liberation said, the average joe isnt going to make their mod, then go out an film their friends running around with toy guns to use as cutscenes. It's a weak idea, and would really throw the player out of the game, if you understand what I mean.

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questionable, perhaps?

Postby Corbin » Sat 15 Sep 2007 9:40 am

Haha, I could see how you would easily get mixed up in this whole "cutscene thing"...I was thinking more along the lines of a little something called "Pre-Rendered Animation", something that's been around for a long time...not neccesarily "live-action actors in live-action scenes", I'm not sure I even mentioned that. I'm positive I mentioned "graphic novels"...

I absolutely agree with you, Dartmerc, but we're not using them as live-action, rather "Pre-Rendered Animation", whether, like stated in the following posts, as a "team logo animation" or whatever, I still believe that you can do more with a movie file than pre-scripted cutscenes.

You can sit there and tell me that the cut-scenes used in Zdoom don't throw you out of the game? They certainly throw me out, but again, this all depends on the content provided. You aren't going to have a mix of graphic novels and live-action with "fake guns" if you can avoid it; I believe people are smarter than this. I wasn't neccesarily naming them as a "gameplay neccesity", either. I wholly believe that having lame-ass live-action cutscenes during gamplay would break it, however, do you really think something like that would even happen? If you try and attempt to understand what is being said, you have to think of this as a game itself, not an "add-on" to DooM, because it will be nothing of the sort. Not even reffering to my modification, but rather the product as a whole. If you aren't using any kind of "graphic novel" system, of course it's a neccesity, but there's always a better way of pulling it off, and that does not neccesarily mean the introduction of "on-rails cutscenes".

Viewing of cameras? If you're reffering to using "Survelience equipment" or something similar, that'd be fine. I certainly belive that a cutscene system that is so obviously "on-rails" would detract from the experience because it's fake. If you have actual pre-rendered anims, or even, hell, pre-rendered graphic novels with some "moving animation", this can all be avoided. Granted, I'm not dissing scripted scenes, merely proving my own opinion. As you have, I fully well expect the same "understanding" that you have presented to me.

I concur, people aren't used to change at all. Once it gets presented, ideas get shot down until somebody comes along and says "this is my contribution to the community". You don't even have to have money involved, but I have been lucky in this case that we are financed with this project, so we have as much freedom as our "day jobs" allow us. This means, as a possibility, having your friends as actors and running around with toy guns does NOT mean the intended cut will appear to be so, it all involves as much heart as you put into it. You can argue this point tooth-and-nail, but in the end, it's going to be the same answer regardless. There are such things as "editors"...and referencing my original reply, there are much better things spent on making pre-rendered scenes, as Lysander stated, than sitting there coding an entire scene (one scene, at that!). Sure, you might put a great deal of effort, and make it look stunning, but as I said earlier...There's always a better way.... You shouldn't be limited to the boundaries of the engine. That's why EDGE is here, that's why it's survived. This engine continues to impress the community, regardless of feedback recieved. And this is a proven fact.

Remember, this is a simple "opinion". Please try to understand this isn't a "flame-war", but I think that comment you made came off rather...crude. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Individuals are compromised of "opinions", however, it would be a wise idea if you got the facts before raising eyebrows pointed at particular content. I did not come out and say "We know this should be in this engine and everything else sucks ass", I merely stated that it "would be pretty important". I'm sorry for the absurd reply, but I didn't feel the need for you to be so...directing, of your comments. I wasn't shooting anythign down, but supporting the original author of the entire thread.

It's like saying you prepared a speech to have everyone downplay it, except for one, but they get ridiculed for it and in self-defence, present ideas that could possibly mean "the make-it or break-it of an idea". Try to understand that things like this is what moves the community forward, not backwards.
Last edited by Corbin on Sun 16 Sep 2007 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Lobo » Sat 15 Sep 2007 10:29 pm

, Lonely Meadows TC,

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Postby Visplane Overflow » Sun 16 Sep 2007 2:23 am


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Postby Corbin » Sun 16 Sep 2007 8:47 am


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Postby Dartmerc » Sun 16 Sep 2007 9:45 am


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Postby Corbin » Sun 16 Sep 2007 10:12 am

Yeah, it's all good. I'm not attacking anything you say, but it seems that most of the criticism aimed at Fusion is negative, or questionable...but it's ok. All wounds are ammended ~shakes hand~ I also misunderstood some of your comments, so wow, our bickering was pointless :P

Decals have a weird way of working right now. I've toyed with several ideas, the most recent being to use a level editor, but I've also tried spawning decals with weapons, even using RTS scripts when neccesary. Right now the RTS system is working the best, but mostly with bulletholes and static objs.

I'm trying not to spoil the fun for this project (which, given the featuresets, will entice people to play it) in public, makes for a good marketing technique. That way, when you see it you'll be like..."I never saw that coming".

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Postby Dartmerc » Sun 16 Sep 2007 10:34 am

haha yeah, it's funny, I read back at what started this and I now regret saying Movie playback isnt required :wink:

Yeah no hard feelings, you'll soon learn I don't beat around the bush, if I'm interested in knowing something, or a little skeptical, i'll come right out with my concerns and queries.

I also know how you feel with those little 'inside secrets' and such, the cool little things you manage to squeze out of EDGE. They're like your children, and I hate releasing content with some cool stuff, just to have some hack come past and rip it off.. or even worse, someone with tallent to redo it better :lol:

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Postby Lobo » Sun 16 Sep 2007 7:42 pm

, Lonely Meadows TC,

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Postby Corbin » Sun 16 Sep 2007 8:27 pm



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